Finding Truth In Yourself (Part 1)
I’m so excited you’re here to experience the first episode of Leaving In Color. My dear friend Marcos joins me for a raw, real conversation about growing up in the Mormon church as a queer person of color. We’ll talk about grappling with your identity, and how painful it can be when being true to yourself conflicts with the faith that’s bound your family for generations.
Our conversation was too important to cut short, and too big for just one episode. Look for the second half of this engrossing discussion in two weeks.
About Our Guest:
Marcos is a born and bred Californian who is proud of his multiple identities as a Chicano, gay man. His life experience and education has shaped his passion for social justice and care for marginalized communities. Marcos enjoys working in higher education to serve students, provide support, and pay it forward based on his own experiences as a first-gen college student navigating academia. He is an avid animal lover who also enjoys concerts, live theater, and the beach.
Mentioned:
The Book of Laman by Mette Ivie Harrison https://www.amazon.com/Book-Laman-Mette-Ivie-Harrison/dp/0998605247
Connect with Leaving in Color:
Instagram - @leavingincolor.pod
Email - leavingincolorpod@gmail.com.
Music by Tucker Winters
Art by Jen Cagle Gilmore
Editing by Particulate Media
Transcript
Hi, welcome to Living in Color, a podcast about uncovering your
Christina Elmer:radiant self after losing your faith.
Christina Elmer:I am your host, Christina Elmer.
Christina Elmer:I'm so delighted you found us.
Christina Elmer:Hello, hello.
Christina Elmer:Oh my god.
Christina Elmer:Um, I can't believe it.
Christina Elmer:We're actually finally here.
Christina Elmer:This is the first episode of Leaving in Color.
Christina Elmer:Wow, this has been such a process getting to this point.
Christina Elmer:I am incredibly grateful for the support of so many people.
Christina Elmer:My coach, Natalie, and my producer, K.O., and of course, friends and family.
Christina Elmer:And yeah, it's just, it's a little surreal, surreal that we're
Christina Elmer:actually here recording today.
Christina Elmer:So, when I had the idea for this podcast, God, it was about a year ago and I was,
Christina Elmer:working with a different coach at the time and in the coaching container,
Christina Elmer:we were envisioning our future selves.
Christina Elmer:And what I had envisioned for myself was to be a host of a podcast.
Christina Elmer:And at that time, I wasn't sure what type of podcast it would be,
Christina Elmer:but I just knew that I wanted, to be a storyteller of some kind.
Christina Elmer:And the idea for Leaving in Color is to create a space where individuals who
Christina Elmer:may not necessarily get the opportunity to tell their story for a multitude
Christina Elmer:of reasons, that this space is the place where they can come share their
Christina Elmer:experiences of leaving high demand belief systems and that their stories matter.
Christina Elmer:Um, also being a person of color, being Japanese American, often feel
Christina Elmer:like I don't fit in a lot of places and I want to be able to create a
Christina Elmer:community where anybody, regardless of their skin tone, that they can feel
Christina Elmer:like what they have to say that their experiences matter, that they just matter.
Christina Elmer:They themselves as a human being.
Christina Elmer:So here we are leaving in color the podcast for uncovering.
Christina Elmer:Your amazing self after leaving your faith or losing your faith.
Christina Elmer:Today's episode is going to be a great one.
Christina Elmer:Um, the guest that we have today is a very...
Christina Elmer:I don't want to say old because we're really not that old, we're actually pretty
Christina Elmer:fucking fabulous, is my amazing kind.
Christina Elmer:wonderful, strong friend, Marcos.
Christina Elmer:and he has so graciously decided to join us here today to share
Christina Elmer:with us his story of finding the strength to uncover his truest self.
Christina Elmer:It wasn't an easy path, but here he is, and he has survived, and he is here to
Christina Elmer:share his amazing experience with us.
Christina Elmer:It's a little wild because we're recording on a Sunday and for a lot of
Christina Elmer:people in Christianity and Mormonism in particular, Sunday is the day of rest.
Christina Elmer:It's the Lord's day.
Christina Elmer:And it's, for a lot of people that are out of Mormonism or whatever
Christina Elmer:their journey may be, um, Sunday is considered a second Saturday.
Christina Elmer:So it feels very serendipitous to be recording on a Sunday, but
Christina Elmer:I would love to now introduce to you after that long spiel.
Christina Elmer:my lovely, amazing, talented, wonderful friend, Marcos.
Christina Elmer:Um, it's wild that we're here, um, 20 years later after meeting at the Lord's
Christina Elmer:University, Brigham Young University.
Christina Elmer:Welcome Marcos.
Christina Elmer:I'm so glad you're here.
Marcos:Thank you.
Marcos:Thank you so much.
Marcos:I'm very happy to be here.
Marcos:Thank you for the invite.
Marcos:And congratulations,
Christina Elmer:Thank you.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:It's been, I contacted Marcos.
Christina Elmer:When was it?
Christina Elmer:It was back in April when I got the idea to start the podcast and it's
Christina Elmer:been months of, I had to really muster up the courage to get into the space
Christina Elmer:where I could just really trust my ability to say that I belong, you know?
Christina Elmer:And so thank you for being willing to do this journey with
Christina Elmer:me and to be the first guest.
Christina Elmer:Um, Where do we begin?
Christina Elmer:I
Christina Elmer:Yeah, Marcos and I have known each other for 20 years, as I said, and, um, we met
Christina Elmer:in college and we'll, we'll talk about a little bit about our time at Brigham
Christina Elmer:Young University back in the late 90s,
Marcos:The early
Christina Elmer:uh, the early 2000s, um, we're totally aging ourselves here.
Marcos:Yeah, the eve of the new millennium.
Christina Elmer:My goodness.
Christina Elmer:And the thing is just like.
Christina Elmer:I think, I honestly feel, Marcos and I are here sitting on video and we have
Christina Elmer:both definitely gotten better with age.
Christina Elmer:We're both like fine wines.
Christina Elmer:We've definitely gotten better with age, or fine cheese if you don't
Christina Elmer:drink alcohol, but, or whatever gets
Marcos:Right, right, right.
Christina Elmer:But definitely, and it has also to do probably
Christina Elmer:with the fact that, you know, we also have great genetics.
Christina Elmer:So...
Christina Elmer:we're both mixed.
Christina Elmer:We're both mixed.
Christina Elmer:I'm, I'm half Japanese and Marcos is...
Christina Elmer:I'll let him tell his story, but um, but yeah Marcos, please tell us, who are you?
Marcos:let's see, that's a tough question.
Marcos:I am California local, so born and raised, um, very
Marcos:proud to be from California.
Marcos:I feel very fortunate to be, be here.
Marcos:Um, my...
Marcos:Grandparents had migrated here, um, almost a hundred years ago, from Mexico.
Marcos:Um, so with that, there's a long and now long family history,
Marcos:specifically in Southern California.
Marcos:And so I'm very happy to still reside in the state and in the history
Marcos:that we have here as a family.
Marcos:Um, I'm very proud of my Mexican heritage.
Marcos:Um, my, so on my mom's side, I am Mexican.
Marcos:And then my dad's side, um, my dad is white.
Marcos:He has a long history in this, in this country, um, as well.
Marcos:Like, I think like his ancestry might go back to like the Mayflower.
Christina Elmer:Cool.
Marcos:I don't really though.
Marcos:connect with that side of my, um, of my heritage per se.
Marcos:Um, I'm happy for my dad and his heritage and I see that as, as all,
Marcos:you know, very good for him, but it's not something that I fully connect to.
Marcos:Um, and I think that works for me and I think that works for him.
Marcos:Um, I know, um, it's all very complicated when you're mixed as I'm sure, you
Marcos:know, um, it can be complicated.
Marcos:So it's one of those scenes where I'm like, my dad is
Marcos:white, but I am not, right?
Marcos:So, very interested and involved with being Latino, Chicano,
Marcos:Mexican American, person of color.
Marcos:That's something that's really important to me.
Marcos:Um, I also identify as gay, um, and, you know, I think being from marginalized
Marcos:groups and just depending on your experience, I think sometimes the more you
Marcos:have to battle things along your process and journey with those identities, it
Marcos:just makes you hold on to it more dearly.
Marcos:Um, so I think, uh, I became even more proud of my identities as I've had
Marcos:different experiences within my life or have had to, like, defend myself and...
Marcos:defend those identities and communities.
Marcos:Um, so it's something that's very proud to me.
Marcos:I know some people don't understand that.
Marcos:But you know, like I say, if, if you don't want people to be so
Marcos:proud of their identities, maybe you shouldn't treat them like shit.
Marcos:Yeah.
Marcos:Because when you treat them that way, they're going to start to be, you
Marcos:know, be more proud of it because they have no choice but to latch
Marcos:on to it once they realize that that's what you just need to do.
Marcos:But I'm someone who I definitely value kindness.
Marcos:I value empathy.
Marcos:I value community.
Marcos:I just try to be a better person each day.
Marcos:Um, and when I'm not, I try the next day.
Marcos:yeah, that's kind of me in a nutshell.
Marcos:Um, anything else you want to know with that, or that kind of covers it?
Christina Elmer:No, that was, that was beautiful.
Christina Elmer:Thank you.
Marcos:You're welcome.
Christina Elmer:I loved when you said that, because of the way that people
Christina Elmer:have treated you, or just people that treat people that are marginalized, that,
Christina Elmer:you know, we need to latch onto that identity, and it makes it stronger for us.
Christina Elmer:I think I've not actually thought about that in that way, and thank
Christina Elmer:you for bringing that to light because it's actually something
Christina Elmer:for me to think about now.
Christina Elmer:Like, I identify as Japanese You know, but I feel like I haven't
Christina Elmer:really tapped into that a whole lot.
Christina Elmer:I also being you know, a cis Asian woman.
Christina Elmer:I feel like I haven't experienced a lot of marginalization or even
Christina Elmer:racism or hatred because of who I am.
Christina Elmer:I still have a lot of privilege.
Christina Elmer:Um, and so thank you for sharing that with me and, you know, saying that, that that's
Christina Elmer:allowed you to, to come into who you are.
Christina Elmer:And I, I think that's beautiful.
Christina Elmer:And I would love to explore that more as we get, further into this podcast
Christina Elmer:and have more of a conversation because I'm very, very curious about
Christina Elmer:the journey of, how you came into the beautiful human that you are today.
Christina Elmer:Not that you weren't beautiful 20 years ago, but you know, just, just
Christina Elmer:seeing you evolve, as your friend has been just beautiful to, to watch.
Marcos:Thank you.
Christina Elmer:You're welcome.
Christina Elmer:Um, So, obviously you went to Brigham Young University,
Christina Elmer:you grew up Mormon, right?
Christina Elmer:Um, what was that experience like growing up in Southern California?
Christina Elmer:where there's a predominantly huge Mormon LDS, Church of Jesus
Christina Elmer:Christ of Latter day Saints.
Christina Elmer:We need to call them by their proper name, right?
Christina Elmer:They don't, they don't like being called Mormons anymore.
Christina Elmer:Um, Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Christina Elmer:That is a mouthful.
Marcos:It is.
Christina Elmer:Um, but what was that like growing up, as a Chicano
Christina Elmer:man in a predominantly white religion?
Christina Elmer:You know, very North American white religion.
Christina Elmer:yeah, let's start with that.
Marcos:Very complicated.
Marcos:Very complicated.
Marcos:Um, you know, I, like you said, was born and raised in the church, um,
Marcos:on my mom's side, so on my Mexican side, I'm actually fourth generation.
Christina Elmer:Fourth generation LDS.
Christina Elmer:Oh, wow.
Christina Elmer:Okay.
Marcos:Yeah.
Marcos:So her, her grandmother, so my great grandmother, had converted when
Marcos:some of her kids were very young.
Marcos:So when my grandmother was very young,
Christina Elmer:In Mexico?
Marcos:my grandmother's...
Marcos:Yeah, in Mexico.
Marcos:Yeah.
Marcos:So at this point, I believe it was still in central Mexico.
Marcos:Um, that's where my grandmother's from and that's where they're just,
Marcos:that's just where they originated.
Marcos:And, my grandmother's father had, had passed away, um, when he was
Marcos:young or when she was very young.
Marcos:And so soon after that, I believe is when the missionaries came to my great
Marcos:grandmother's house and she converted.
Marcos:You know, I mean, I can get into that later, but the church has been
Marcos:very significant, very important for generations within my family.
Marcos:And then my dad was actually a convert, so he converted in his
Marcos:20s, I believe his early 20s.
Marcos:And, um, my mom and my dad, they actually met the day after he
Marcos:got baptized, um, at church.
Marcos:Yeah,
Christina Elmer:Was it in, was it in a, a young single adults
Christina Elmer:ward or a family congregation?
Marcos:Um, good question.
Marcos:I believe it was still the family ward.
Marcos:I believe it was the family ward.
Marcos:And, uh, so, yeah, they met the day after he got baptized.
Marcos:And then soon had their courtship and, uh, they both went on missions and basically
Marcos:let's see what happens type thing.
Marcos:And then they came back and then soon after got married and went from there.
Marcos:So, um, and they're still very, um, very strong on the church, very much LDS.
Marcos:And, uh, so I grew up in very.
Marcos:what's the word?
Marcos:I forget the word.
Marcos:Uh, it's funny how it works when you're a little bit far further
Marcos:removed from religion, you forget some of the words and terms.
Marcos:but they, they were very, it was a very faithful household.
Marcos:They definitely ruled, um, raised us with the church's guidelines.
Marcos:However, they weren't overly zealous about some things, which was nice.
Marcos:Um, but they were pretty, you know, by the book in most areas.
Marcos:So, you know, most of my ward, um, and area, well, most of the
Marcos:ward specifically was white.
Marcos:Um, there were a few of us who were not, few families that
Marcos:were not, but most were white.
Marcos:For the most part, I would say I had a good experience, like people were
Marcos:very nice, um, you know, within time, you know, I was like a teenager, I
Marcos:developed really strong bonds with some of the senior citizen, uh, women
Marcos:in our ward, and we loved hugging each other, you know, most of them
Marcos:were white, um, but there were some of like the older brown women too that we
Marcos:connected, um, the most part it was good.
Marcos:However, there definitely were a lot of microaggressions.
Marcos:that you just hear from the pulpit and you encounter, in your socializing
Marcos:with people, it's a lot of, a lot of microaggressions and racism.
Marcos:Like even when I went to a wedding, um, probably like eight years ago of
Marcos:a friend I grew up with in the church.
Marcos:A very nice family, um, was there, and I was just surprised
Marcos:by some of the microaggressions that immediately came out.
Marcos:While trying to give a compliment, it was a backhanded, while, complimenting me
Marcos:and my family was insulting my, you know, ethnic community, and I was like, okay.
Marcos:So there definitely was a lot of that with my experience in the church.
Marcos:Um, and then just hearing, and it feels odd using this term now, but all the
Marcos:Lamanite talk that they would have, how the fetishization and, you know,
Marcos:just all sorts of things that they do with brown people and say about
Marcos:brown people was really frustrating.
Marcos:Um, so it was definitely a mixed bag.
Marcos:I'm very thankful for my experience overall.
Marcos:I feel like it taught me about faith and prayer and provide a community.
Marcos:And, you know, with the fact that you learn so many little skills that
Marcos:you wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise, like as a kid, right.
Marcos:How to make photocopies, how to, how, how
Christina Elmer:I mean, the church library was like, anytime you got access
Christina Elmer:to the church library, it was just like, you felt like a freaking baller
Christina Elmer:because it had everything in there.
Christina Elmer:It had the crayons.
Christina Elmer:It had all the artwork and the copy machine, which was always broken.
Christina Elmer:it was always broken, but it was just like, when you got to use it, it was just
Christina Elmer:like, you felt like, so freaking cool.
Marcos:That's so true.
Marcos:Like, I remember as a kid, we would photocopy our face
Christina Elmer:No!
Marcos:machine.
Marcos:Like, I never would have experienced this otherwise, right?
Marcos:You didn't get a chance to do it as a kid in private.
Christina Elmer:Yeah,oh
Marcos:So you learn a lot of little skills, you know, and so
Marcos:that was all rewarding and I, um, was very appreciative of it.
Marcos:And so it's weird when that becomes a place of solace and peace and
Marcos:then it starts conflicting with you and then it's no longer that.
Marcos:Or it's like, or it could be both at the same time, right?
Marcos:And that's where it starts getting really complicated and really, um, unfortunate
Marcos:to where it could feel like a betrayal.
Marcos:So it was every which experience I would say.
Marcos:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:Would you mind expounding a little bit more, um, for
Christina Elmer:listeners that may not really know kind of the theology in Mormonism
Christina Elmer:and regarding the Lamanite people
Marcos:yeah.
Marcos:Um, at least at the time when I, um, was involved, I'm sure, I'm assuming most of
Marcos:it has stayed the same, um, essentially it was believed and taught that Lamanites
Marcos:are essentially the ancestors of present day, um, Native Americans, um, or
Marcos:those with, you know, Native descent.
Marcos:Um, so it can include many, you know, people from Latin America, uh, Um,
Marcos:some also extended it to like the Pacific Islanders, in my experience,
Marcos:my family would have been more with the native ancestry aspect.
Marcos:Um, and my family is very much brown, um, my Mexican family.
Marcos:So, um, definitely they were seen as like descendants of Lamanites.
Marcos:And, um, with that, um, essentially Lamanites they descended
Marcos:from the family, Lehi and his family who came from Jerusalem.
Marcos:They came to what is the Americas.
Marcos:Um, essentially the promised land.
Marcos:Um, they arrived.
Marcos:Lehman and Lem Lehman and Lem
Christina Elmer:yes.
Marcos:Lemuel, should I say it correctly now, they were, uh,
Marcos:essentially the, the evil sons, the evil
Christina Elmer:They were really vilified.
Marcos:Yes, and of course, um, their followers were then known
Marcos:as the Lamanites, were then, as they were were cursed with dark
Marcos:skin or cursed in general, but the mark of that was the brown skin.
Marcos:And so, there's both this deep demonization, but then also like
Marcos:this fetishization that happens, um, with, um, these groups.
Marcos:And so it's really, Interesting to see and just, I know like many family members
Marcos:and I definitely were uncomfortable with some of these things that were
Marcos:said and it wasn't until BYU, my Book of Mormon professor, who's a very nice
Marcos:man, um, he tried clarifying it as far as like, no, the brown skin, the dark
Marcos:skin is not the curse, that's the mark and then the curse is something else.
Marcos:I mean, it definitely is playing semantics, um, but definitely at
Marcos:the time it felt a little better.
Marcos:Like, thank you for saying this in a predominantly white classroom.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Marcos:Um, because people are going around thinking that we're cursed.
Marcos:And, you know, many Christian denominations have that
Marcos:mentality about people of color.
Marcos:That, you know, white is virtuous, white is pure, and we just see that
Marcos:throughout, not just religion, but like literature and just society, right?
Marcos:Going back, the fair maiden and all
Christina Elmer:Always dressed in virginal white.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Marcos:Exactly.
Marcos:So it's overlapped so much with like race, ethnicity, and gender
Marcos:when it comes down to that.
Marcos:And so all that was very complicated.
Marcos:You know, being a kid, some of it was like a sense of pride.
Marcos:Right?
Marcos:Like.
Marcos:You know, that's right.
Marcos:Like, we, you know, this is where we're from.
Marcos:This is our land.
Marcos:Christ came to visit us as well.
Marcos:And we matter too.
Marcos:But now as an adult removed from that ideology, I'm like, I do not like
Marcos:how they still like take those tours.
Marcos:Like, no, no, no, no.
Marcos:from my perspective, that's not your ancestor stories.
Marcos:Those are indigenous people and these descended people's history and
Marcos:families and stories and beliefs.
Marcos:So I don't like how they Columbus that still.
Marcos:Um, so that really bothers me.
Marcos:Um, and it's also led to a lot of other, it's contributed to a lot of other groups
Marcos:out there, um, that do, essentially pirate indigenous history and culture.
Marcos:And, um, so it's very problematic in that regard.
Marcos:So it's all very conflicted, right?
Marcos:On one hand, at one point it's like, yay.
Marcos:And then I was like, nay.
Marcos:Um, so, um, so it's very complicated, but that, that was
Marcos:my overall experience with that.
Marcos:Um, but I do definitely think it's problematic.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:For sure.
Christina Elmer:It definitely is.
Christina Elmer:I, yeah, I can definitely relate to that.
Christina Elmer:And it's different because being of Japanese descent, like there's not,
Christina Elmer:you know, I didn't necessarily identify with the Lamanites per se, but I did to
Christina Elmer:an extent, like, especially when I had children and, you know, we'd be reading
Christina Elmer:from the Book of Mormon and it would talk about, people, because they were wicked,
Christina Elmer:they were cursed with darker skin, and,
Marcos:hmm.
Marcos:Mm hmm.
Christina Elmer:my, ex husband is of German descent, so he's very fair skinned
Christina Elmer:and, my, my children have some color.
Christina Elmer:But you know, it's, it was, there's the, there's a term in the book of Mormon
Christina Elmer:that talks about white and delightsome.
Christina Elmer:And even like as a child, just reading that, cause you know, I'm naturally
Christina Elmer:tan, like, um, a lot of, there's different variations of skin tone
Christina Elmer:within, you know, people, colors, you know, even within Japanese,
Marcos:Right.
Marcos:. Christina Elmer: And so, um, I just remember reading that and just being
Marcos:like, what the hell, what the hell does white and dark, it's so mean, you know,
Marcos:it feels very, and you know, there's Mormon apologists that sit there and
Marcos:they, you know, as your Book of Mormon professor at BYU tried to recognize
Marcos:that there was some issue with it and tried to maybe add in a little bit of,
Marcos:there was a little bit more nuanced than, you know, it was intended, but you
Marcos:know, I think he, he tried to make it.
Marcos:fit into something, maybe what he was believing for himself.
Marcos:And maybe that wasn't what necessarily what Joseph Smith intended, but I
Marcos:do appreciate that he, he did do that because he was acknowledging
Marcos:that there was some problematic themes within what he was teaching.
Marcos:Um, and I, I appreciate that.
Marcos:But yeah, some of the, just looking back and, you know, cause my, my,
Marcos:my kids are still very active in the church because my ex husband is.
Marcos:And so I still have a connection to it in a sense.
Marcos:Um, but it's just very interesting kind of remembering those things that we
Marcos:read as kids and just, you know, I...
Marcos:I don't know if your experience was like this, but I, I didn't
Marcos:really read the Book of Mormon.
Marcos:Like, it was just kind of like, I read it once to get done with my young women's
Marcos:certification, like the young women's, whatever the thing was, because it was
Marcos:like, you know, looking for external validation because, you know, my, I came
Marcos:from a family that wasn't necessarily fitting into the normal Mormon,
Marcos:confines of what a perfect family was.
Marcos:Um, and so I felt like I had to do it.
Marcos:And so I read the book of Mormon just once, just to get, the, you
Marcos:know, beautiful medallion with the Salt Lake temple and graved on it,
Marcos:which they don't do that anymore.
Marcos:So it feels less rewarding in young women's, they just did like little
Marcos:bookmarks with ribbons and like,
Marcos:Oh.
Christina Elmer:You know,
Marcos:I used to like their
Christina Elmer:I know!
Christina Elmer:We got some sweet swag in Young Women's
Marcos:need something
Christina Elmer:I know, especially with the Boy Scouts
Christina Elmer:getting as much swag as they did.
Christina Elmer:It was always nice as a Young Woman to get the Golden Medallion when you
Christina Elmer:finished and Beehives and Miamades and Laurels when you finished all of it.
Christina Elmer:So, I always loved
Marcos:I wanted, I would have preferred a medallion over a tie tack.
Marcos:To be honest, I'm like,
Christina Elmer:Right?
Christina Elmer:Yes, I know.
Marcos:can you make this a medallion, not
Christina Elmer:sure.
Marcos:tie tack?
Marcos:But I'll settle for it.
Marcos:Fine.
Marcos:I can wear it on Sunday.
Marcos:But,
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Marcos:But I want to go back to what you said about like that scripture.
Marcos:Um, I have a book right here.
Marcos:I'm actually, there's a Mexican, a Mormon, I forgot what it's called, but
Marcos:like Mormon Mexican history museum.
Marcos:It's just a very small, like little
Christina Elmer:And where's Improba?
Christina Elmer:Okay.
Marcos:And about 10 years ago, um, I went, I'm like, okay, I want to see.
Marcos:Cause you know, my, my grandmother, I, as I mentioned, she was from
Marcos:central Mexico, but they had migrated to Northern Mexico when she was
Marcos:younger as well and after they converted and stuff and were baptized.
Marcos:So they were actually living in the Mormon colonies in northern Mexico, so
Christina Elmer:The colonias.
Marcos:because Say it
Christina Elmer:The colonias.
Marcos:Yes, exactly.
Marcos:Exactly.
Marcos:Look at you, El
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:You know.
Christina Elmer:You know.
Marcos:You know all about it.
Marcos:Um, and actually El Paso is where my grandparents, um,
Christina Elmer:Oh, that's really
Marcos:So, yeah, yeah.
Marcos:Um, but, so we figured there would be some family history at the museum.
Marcos:So we went, because part of like, we don't, you know, just to learn more.
Marcos:And so we went and I was so bothered because the book that they sell there,
Marcos:it has that scripture on the front cover.
Marcos:And essentially, and you look like the Journal of Discourses, prophets, you
Marcos:know, passages talking about, like, especially about Mexican people, they
Marcos:would talk and, you know, native descended or native people in general, they would
Marcos:talk about, and bring up like, oh, pretty much after being converted and
Marcos:following the church, they became whiter.
Marcos:They became lighter.
Marcos:Can you believe it?
Marcos:This shows how great the church's teachings are.
Marcos:And I'm like, it's all documented.
Marcos:So this book has it on the cover and it has a picture of a bunch of brown people.
Marcos:And then it has that on top.
Marcos:So I got it just for that reason, because I wanted to have proof of it.
Marcos:And I wanted, I was tempted to email them.
Marcos:I, I'm like, I need to calm down before doing so.
Marcos:But I, but I didn't.
Marcos:It's still not too late, but um, it's been sitting, you know, on
Marcos:my bookshelf for about a decade.
Marcos:And I'm so annoyed still about it.
Christina Elmer:That's wild.
Christina Elmer:Thank you for sharing that.
Christina Elmer:Um, when you were talking and we were sharing about, you know,
Christina Elmer:when you're talking, explaining to our listeners about, um, Laman
Christina Elmer:and Lemuel, it was interesting.
Christina Elmer:When I was kind of exploring different versions of Mormonism
Christina Elmer:while in Mormonism, coming into my baby feminist stage in Mormonism.
Christina Elmer:Um, Um, but also realizing, you know, being, what do we call Asian?
Christina Elmer:Are we do, are Asians, are we considered brown?
Christina Elmer:Are we considered, you know, I just, I just go with persons of color.
Christina Elmer:Cause that's what feels most safe to me.
Christina Elmer:Like how do, how do I fit into the grand scheme of the ideology and
Christina Elmer:the belief system of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Christina Elmer:And what do I want my children to know?
Christina Elmer:Because they're, they're like a weird percentage because
Christina Elmer:I'm three quarters Japanese.
Christina Elmer:And so they're like 38 percent Japanese.
Christina Elmer:But how do I want my kids to feel in this belief system that's very,
Christina Elmer:very, very whitewashed and feels very call, you know, has a real
Christina Elmer:colonial colonization feel to it.
Christina Elmer:Um, and it was interesting as I was kind of looking at, um, Mormon literature
Christina Elmer:written by, you know, Mormon authors, people that are still believers
Christina Elmer:within Mormonism, but had a little bit more of a nuanced take to Mormonism.
Christina Elmer:Um, one book that I found and, um, she's a fiction writer, you may
Christina Elmer:have to put it in the show notes.
Christina Elmer:I can't remember her name.
Christina Elmer:Um, but I loved the books that she wrote and there was one that she wrote
Christina Elmer:and I, I'm going to tear up thinking about it because it just really spoke
Christina Elmer:to me was called The Book of Laman.
Christina Elmer:I don't know if you you ever read it
Marcos:hmm.
Marcos:Mm hmm.
Christina Elmer:You may not have because I think I read it in like 2017
Marcos:Okay.
Christina Elmer:But it's about Laman's take on the book of Nephi
Marcos:ooh,
Christina Elmer:It was it still may be a very interesting read now for
Marcos:right.
Christina Elmer:I'm curious as to where you are now within, within Mormonism.
Christina Elmer:Um, but when I read it, I felt such a connection to it cause it really came
Christina Elmer:from a place of like struggle and, you know, just cause growing up, we had
Christina Elmer:really seen it as they were very vilified, like they were wicked and they were,
Christina Elmer:you know, rebellious and they fought against their father, Lehi, and they, you
Christina Elmer:know, tied up their righteous brother.
Christina Elmer:Um, but we never got the perspective of Laman and Lemuel,
Christina Elmer:like what were they going through?
Christina Elmer:What was their experience?
Christina Elmer:And as I've matured as a human being, I really wanted to know
Christina Elmer:different perspectives in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon.
Christina Elmer:Like what are women's take on, you know, what happened when Jesus was on earth?
Christina Elmer:Or why aren't there more stories within the Bible or Book of Mormon
Christina Elmer:where women are actually named, you know, and I would ask friends
Christina Elmer:about it or my spouse at the time.
Christina Elmer:And the answer that I consistently got was, oh, there's stories,
Christina Elmer:you just have to look for it.
Christina Elmer:And I would look and I wouldn't find anything.
Christina Elmer:And the thing that I really appreciated towards the end of my journey in Mormonism
Christina Elmer:was there was a lot more coming out about women in, in the scriptures,
Christina Elmer:you know, women in the Bible, there's, volumes of, of text of, um, people taking
Christina Elmer:dedicated time to research women in the Bible and the Old and New Testaments.
Christina Elmer:And I don't know if there was one that ever came out about the book of Mormon,
Christina Elmer:but back to reading the book of Laman, it just like this story was granted, it was
Christina Elmer:fictionalized and it was this woman's, this, the author's take of how she felt
Christina Elmer:Laman was experiencing, you know, coming to the Americas and, you know, how he felt
Christina Elmer:after he tied Nephi up on the ship and how he felt when, you know, he was forced to
Christina Elmer:go and get the scriptures, you know, the brass plates from Laman and, or Laban.
Christina Elmer:And it just was such a beautiful read.
Christina Elmer:I almost want to go back and read it because, um.
Christina Elmer:It's bringing up a lot of emotion for me.
Christina Elmer:I remember reading it and thinking about it when we were on family vacation
Christina Elmer:in southern Utah, and I just kept feeling so connected to that story.
Christina Elmer:And even now leaving, having left Mormonism three years ago, I wish
Christina Elmer:that there were more things like that available, whether, especially for people
Christina Elmer:that decide to stay in Mormonism, you know, to have, um, stories written for
Christina Elmer:them about that they can identify with more and not, you know, read the Book of
Christina Elmer:Mormon and, and feel detached from it, but feel like they have to believe it because
Christina Elmer:they're told that they have to believe it.
Christina Elmer:You know what I mean?
Marcos:hmm.
Marcos:Mm hmm.
Christina Elmer:It's also beautiful to see the journey that Mormonism
Christina Elmer:has taken for a lot of people.
Christina Elmer:Like there's a lot of people that are still in that are really working to make
Christina Elmer:Mormonism a place where people can stay, you know, if they, if they choose to stay.
Christina Elmer:And I, I really appreciate those, those individuals who are doing that work
Christina Elmer:because there is something to be said about having a belief system and having
Christina Elmer:a community and, but it's hard when you can't find yourself in a lot of,
Christina Elmer:of, you know, the, the images, the, the pictures that are used in Mormonism,
Christina Elmer:you know, you can't see yourself,
Marcos:The The pioneer stories.
Christina Elmer:which, you know, then they say, you know, you can, you're
Christina Elmer:a pioneer in your own right, but it's like, I don't identify with those people
Christina Elmer:crossing the plains and suffering.
Christina Elmer:And yes, like I have ancestors on my dad's side that probably
Christina Elmer:have crossed the plains.
Christina Elmer:I actually have not done a lot of family history.
Christina Elmer:That was one thing I didn't really love was the family
Christina Elmer:history aspect of the church.
Christina Elmer:But, you know, I did have family members that did cross the plains as I'm sure if
Christina Elmer:you'd, anyone does any research into their family history, but it, yeah, I, it's not
Christina Elmer:something that a lot of people of color.
Christina Elmer:You know, brown people can really identify with, which we do have
Christina Elmer:our own versions of our, our own people coming into this country.
Christina Elmer:And it's not necessarily that, but it is, it does resonate with us.
Christina Elmer:And I wish that we had more of that in, in the form of religion,
Christina Elmer:if, if that calls to people.
Marcos:Right.
Christina Elmer:Yeah, it's just interesting that growing up in, even in my
Christina Elmer:congregation in El Paso, Texas, you know, which is on the border, there was a good
Christina Elmer:mix of, you know, we had black people, we had brown people, we had white people.
Christina Elmer:I, but I was the only Asian in my congregation.
Christina Elmer:and.
Christina Elmer:I don't think I really came into my Asian ness until I got to BYU.
Christina Elmer:And I would really love to talk about our, our time at BYU.
Christina Elmer:Um, but yeah, we may have to come back to this.
Christina Elmer:It's not, it's not feeling easeful, but, um, yeah, let's talk about BYU.
Marcos:Yeah, Yeah, ha
Christina Elmer:What, how, how did you end up there?
Christina Elmer:Like, is it, because we know that BYU, for listeners out there, BYU is
Christina Elmer:a church owned, supported university.
Christina Elmer:And so, the tuition is subsidized by the monies that church members
Christina Elmer:give in their tithe offerings.
Christina Elmer:And so it makes it very economical for, you know, Mormon kids to go to
Christina Elmer:Brigham Young University because tuition is subsidized and it's significantly
Christina Elmer:less expensive than going even sometimes to the state institution.
Christina Elmer:Um, so how did you end up at Brigham Young University?
Christina Elmer:Provo, because they do have different campuses.
Christina Elmer:They also have the Hawaii one, which I heard is much more
Christina Elmer:difficult to get into, but
Marcos:Okay.
Marcos:I didn't
Christina Elmer:how Provo?
Marcos:Yeah.
Marcos:So I always wanted to go ever since I was a kid.
Marcos:Um,
Christina Elmer:love that.
Christina Elmer:I love that for you.
Christina Elmer:I can just see you with, like, a little
Marcos:I was quite the little Mormon boy with, I had a little BYU
Christina Elmer:Oh my god,
Marcos:I was so sad when, I was so sad when it flew off and I lost
Marcos:it when we were on a family trip in Mexico in, in Ensenada, I was
Marcos:like, oh, the wind took it away.
Marcos:I was so sad.
Marcos:But, so I just wanted to go there.
Marcos:My eldest brother went there.
Marcos:So it was something that always kind of had to, you know, to model after,
Marcos:um, I went through a period as a kid wanting to go to BYU Hawaii.
Marcos:Like, oh, that just sounds so cool, being in Hawaii on a tropical island.
Marcos:Um, that dream was just very short lived.
Marcos:But either way, I wanted to go to a BYU campus.
Marcos:And so Provo was what I had in mind.
Marcos:And I went to SOAR, um, which was their...
Marcos:Um, summer of academic refinement, which was for, um, students of color, um, and or
Marcos:I think it's since it's expanded a little bit, but it's still students of color and
Marcos:lower income backgrounds, first generation college students, like a combination,
Marcos:but all of us were students of color.
Marcos:And, um, it's before your senior year of high school.
Marcos:So I went there, and essentially they help prep you for college, help prep
Marcos:you for admissions to BYU, prep you for the ACT, and you actually take
Marcos:the ACT there as well, which is a standardized test for those who aren't
Marcos:familiar with the ACT versus the SAT.
Marcos:Um, and, so that was, that was where I wanted to go.
Marcos:And then when I went to SOAR, that's where I got to meet the people from the
Marcos:multicultural office and the recruiters.
Marcos:Really bonded with some of them, made some great connections and, um,
Marcos:relationships with some of the staff and there'll be our counselors or, um,
Marcos:recruiters and different office personnel.
Marcos:Some of which I'm still, you know, in communication with on social media.
Marcos:And, um, so it was great.
Marcos:I, the recruiter who I love so much, um, she was, she really walked me
Marcos:through the process of admissions.
Marcos:She actually personally told me that I was accepted to BYU over the phone.
Christina Elmer:That's so
Marcos:Um, because it was like a journey of like having to submit more documents
Marcos:and have to send this and send that.
Marcos:I was, um, a first generation college student, grew up low income, um, while
Marcos:my parents, they had some experience, um, in college at a community college.
Marcos:Um, you know, life happens as an adult, and so pretty much just working,
Marcos:marriage, kids, um, that, that took over.
Marcos:Um, so even though they didn't have the opportunity of college education,
Marcos:they definitely encouraged it.
Marcos:Um, so BYU felt in reach because of, you know, it was a Mormon owned church.
Marcos:We constantly would hear about it.
Marcos:My father went there, a lot of cousins went there, and so
Marcos:it's just where I wanted to be.
Marcos:So I was very thankful that I was accepted.
Marcos:Um, it was through the Multicultural Office, so I definitely had a
Marcos:lot of support through them.
Marcos:Um, I was very fortunate to be granted a scholarship through them as well.
Marcos:And this is where I wanted to be, so I was super ecstatic.
Marcos:Overall I love the experience, uh, cause where I want it to be, a
Marcos:fresh, being a freshmen's always an adjustment at first year, you know,
Marcos:being out of state, um, was, it's always in being adjustment period.
Marcos:and I was fortunate to have, you know, some cousins at the school,
Marcos:but other cousins in the area, just extended family in the area in
Marcos:general is very lucky to have that.
Marcos:As well as friends, people from SOAR, people from childhood, so it
Marcos:was very, I was fortunate to not, I knew people already, so that helped.
Marcos:but being at a PWI, uh, so primarily white institution, is very interesting.
Marcos:Um, very, and BYU does love their acronyms as well as, as does education
Marcos:in general, but BYU loves their acronyms.
Marcos:Um, it was a big adjustment for me.
Marcos:Um, you know, I grew up in Southern California where it's very diverse.
Marcos:I was used to have, being around all people of color, just very diverse group
Marcos:of people at all, most of the time.
Marcos:And being where you're by far the minority was really an adjustment for me.
Marcos:And thank goodness for the Multicultural Office, um, and all their activities
Marcos:and programs I was part of, and meeting you and your group of friends.
Marcos:Um, other friendships that I, you know, had there was very helpful to make that
Marcos:world much smaller and where most of my close friends there were people of color,
Marcos:um, with the exception of, you know, a few token white people, um, which I,
Marcos:which I, which I built is the opposite, right, where I built good relationships
Marcos:with or still in touch with, right?
Marcos:Some of our mutual friends as well.
Marcos:So, so I am appreciative of all that.
Marcos:It took a turn though, um, because it was around this time when I was having to
Marcos:figure myself out and my sexual identity.
Marcos:So it was a really difficult time.
Marcos:It was a mixed bag because it was both so much fun and so exhilarating
Marcos:and I loved the knowledge.
Marcos:I loved the experience.
Marcos:You know, with some struggles there too though because I
Marcos:was a new college student.
Marcos:But then being away and trying to figure it out, because, you know,
Marcos:I was 18 and, you know, at the time, 19 was the missionary age.
Marcos:And what I didn't want to do, and this is just for me only,
Marcos:what I didn't want to do was...
Marcos:go on a mission and figure it out there.
Marcos:I wanted to have it figured out before I went, before I did the whole temple thing.
Marcos:I wanted to be clear about who am I, where do I stand with
Marcos:this about my sexual identity.
Marcos:So that's why I put that on myself.
Marcos:Looking back, I was very young.
Marcos:I could, I had a lot more time to figure it out if I wanted, but
Marcos:I didn't want to do that because of my belief in the church.
Marcos:I knew that their stance on that.
Marcos:So I didn't want to necessarily, I had to be true to myself, but without
Marcos:what I thought was disrespecting their teachings at the same time,
Marcos:um, which was a really hard balance.
Marcos:So that's why at 18, essentially I kind of put that on myself, while a
Marcos:BYU student, um, to start exploring.
Marcos:And so with that, that doesn't really, you know, coincide being a BYU
Marcos:student and exploring your sexuality.
Marcos:Um, but I felt like I owed it to myself to do that.
Marcos:Um, it was, it was a struggle though, because there's so much
Marcos:Mormon guilt, um, that was attached.
Marcos:So it was really hard.
Marcos:Like, definitely looking back on it, I definitely think I had periods of,
Marcos:of some depression there after I would explore, um, the depth, there was
Marcos:a lot of, you know, self isolation.
Marcos:There was, um, it was hard looking back on it and I will still try
Marcos:to figure out what's next, right?
Marcos:Because after freshman year, that's time to go on a mission.
Marcos:So I had my year of trying to figure it out and exploring.
Marcos:I didn't attach an identity to it.
Marcos:I just attached actions.
Marcos:Um, I didn't attach identity to the actions.
Marcos:I just saw them as actions.
Marcos:And at the end, uh, which is, kind of coincides with Mormonism too.
Marcos:There's homosexual, quote, homosexual tendencies and same sex attraction,
Christina Elmer:I hate those words.
Marcos:versus your actual identity.
Marcos:Me too.
Marcos:Me too.
Marcos:They're so frustrating.
Marcos:So I spoke with my bishop at BYU.
Marcos:Um, I stayed for the first summer term.
Marcos:Um, I think you may have been
Christina Elmer:I was there with you, yeah.
Marcos:Yeah, and you know I was suffering in silence for the most part,
Marcos:um, with all this, and I eventually did confide in one friend who was
Marcos:going through something similar.
Marcos:So thankfully we had each other at that time.
Marcos:Um, but all in all, we were also handling it differently.
Marcos:And so it was, it was just a very hard time for both of us.
Marcos:And so I spoke to the Bishop and, it actually went pretty well, I would
Marcos:say as well as it could have gone.
Marcos:But because of the timing of it, you know, I'm about to go home for, the
Marcos:school year now, from the school year.
Marcos:And so I didn't now, because I had to work through it, right, like through
Marcos:the repentance process, I would now have to tell my home bishop as well.
Marcos:So I essentially had to tell two bishops.
Marcos:And looking back on it, I mean, at that time, it's just the norm,
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Marcos:But looking back on it, it's so, um, not only is it so
Marcos:vulnerable, but it's violating.
Marcos:You are literally telling a middle aged man, or older man, what
Marcos:you have done, giving details.
Marcos:It feels odd.
Christina Elmer:It's so fucking invasive.
Marcos:can feel, yes, yes!
Marcos:And so, long story short, essentially I would have had to have gone on
Marcos:a mission to clear everything up.
Marcos:Essentially, to go back to BYU to, you know, continue BYU with my scholarship.
Marcos:you know, and then kind of go along my merry way.
Marcos:So both bishops, all in all, were willing because they saw
Marcos:that I did feel very guilty.
Marcos:I did want to go on a mission.
Marcos:I came from a family who's very missionary minded, and so I was starting the process.
Marcos:Of course, the bishop at home was encouraging that I date girls.
Marcos:as well.
Marcos:And I'm like, oh, I don't really want to.
Marcos:Um, but he was trying to be understanding.
Marcos:He did have a scientific approach to some of his things, which the
Marcos:first time I had heard some of that.
Marcos:Um, so, okay, cool.
Marcos:So he was, I think he did try.
Marcos:I think both bishops did try.
Marcos:Um, but all in all, once I saw like, I was figuring out if
Marcos:this is really just who I am.
Marcos:I stopped responding to correspondence, and then it became a big deal.
Marcos:So, essentially, long story short, I was on the run, on the run, and what I
Marcos:felt like on the run, for a long time.
Christina Elmer:You were a fugitive.
Christina Elmer:You're a fugitive from the morgue.
Marcos:a fugitive.
Marcos:I was a fugitive.
Marcos:And all while virtually alone, um, thankfully at that time, as
Marcos:I did have, I was in a long term relationship that had started.
Marcos:And thankfully for him and his support, I started expressing bits and pieces to
Marcos:like a close friend or to my close cousin, but without getting, giving details.
Marcos:Um, the only one at the time that knew all the specifics were, um, my then boyfriend.
Marcos:and I think actually my other close friend at the time who was also
Marcos:going through something similar.
Marcos:So those were the only two.
Marcos:So I felt, it was very scary, you know, living at home and
Marcos:just trying to start your life.
Marcos:And I was working full time now at this time, not going
Marcos:to school, because I still...
Marcos:not telling people that I decided not to go on a mission yet and just trying
Marcos:to prolong all these conversations, put off all these conversations as long as
Marcos:I could, um, just trying to do my thing.
Marcos:Um, so it's interesting because the church, my sexuality, and my personal
Marcos:relationships, my familial relationships, so professional education, it's all
Marcos:very intertwined for a long time.
Marcos:And it was inevitable.
Marcos:So it was really complicated.
Marcos:So the life definitely took a turn that I was not, I never
Marcos:would have expected, to be honest.
Marcos:I had everything mapped out, you know, when you're Mormon, you kind of do.
Marcos:And when certain things are expected of you, whether it be from the church or from
Marcos:school or whatever, or just personally, you have it all mapped out and I did.
Marcos:And when none of that happens or in that order or to those types, that gender
Marcos:of people, it's really, it's really.
Marcos:It throws you off.
Marcos:And it took a long time for me to figure it out because I was in hiding and
Marcos:having to protect myself and survive while still trying to move ahead.
Marcos:Um, it was a lot.
Marcos:it was a lot.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:Wow.
Christina Elmer:Oh, my heart, Marcos.
Christina Elmer:Thank you for sharing that.
Christina Elmer:It feels, like I can't imagine having to navigate all of that alone, you
Christina Elmer:know, I know that you had a couple of people, but just, I, and maybe
Christina Elmer:my, I'm assuming, but I, I know you to be a very social and loving
Christina Elmer:person, you love being around people.
Christina Elmer:So I can imagine that that was just so, probably heartbreaking, and terrifying,
Christina Elmer:and just potentially made it much more difficult to even try to work through
Christina Elmer:some of those things because you were so extremely isolated and you couldn't
Christina Elmer:reach out when you needed people.
Marcos:Thank you.
Marcos:And you're exactly right.
Marcos:It, it, through my young adulthood and actually adulthood
Marcos:overall, I had to change.
Marcos:I kept my circle very small.
Marcos:Um, I grew up in a family that's also very private as well.
Marcos:So I was kind of already used to, you know, being selective what I would share.
Marcos:But that was kind of normal for me, but to have to be so selective
Marcos:about who I can let into my life.
Marcos:I may, I delayed on getting on social media.
Marcos:I dreaded bumping into people because I didn't know what wasn't be said or
Marcos:what wasn't be asked or what was heard.
Marcos:And so it made it very, very hard, to create new relationships as an
Marcos:adult, like friendships as an adult.
Marcos:So thankfully, I was able to take in the circle of my then, um, my then boyfriend.
Marcos:And we, you know, we had a very long term relationship.
Marcos:We're still close friends.
Marcos:I'm still good friends with his family.
Marcos:So thank goodness for all their support that I've had for a very long time.
Marcos:Um, and then fast forward now, you know, being married to a
Marcos:wonderful man and having his circle.
Marcos:And so, really, it's through them and their circles were my closest people
Marcos:in my life, while also being selective who I would let in through work,
Marcos:through school, um, along the way.
Marcos:So it definitely did change, like, any, any idea of, like, developing
Marcos:new friendships and socializing that I would have had during my time at BYU.
Marcos:It had to shift.
Marcos:And so it was hard, and then you kind of get used to it,
Marcos:and that becomes your new norm.
Marcos:Um, and when people do kind of like do you dirty along the
Marcos:way about your sexual identity.
Marcos:Um, and there's betrayal there that you just start to trust less
Marcos:people and you start to just once again keep your circle even smaller.
Marcos:And so it makes it hard.
Marcos:It does.
Marcos:Um, but you're right.
Marcos:And I appreciate you seeing that and understanding that because I
Marcos:don't think a lot of people would.
Marcos:I, people would at the time in my early twenties, I would hear comments,
Marcos:like they sensed a shift in me.
Marcos:But I think it's funny because at that time we're growing up.
Marcos:There were times where I was a little bit different than my usual
Marcos:self and no one thought to ask why.
Marcos:And that's what kind of hurts looking back on it.
Marcos:That's something that recently hit me.
Marcos:It's like, okay, I remember going through a really angsty period in
Marcos:middle school and I remember people telling me, you're being different.
Marcos:What's going on with you?
Marcos:And the same thing happened when I was trying to hide my relationship and
Marcos:hide the, prevent conversations about mission and BYU in my early twenties.
Marcos:And I was having to be very quiet and not talk about my life, ask about their life.
Marcos:And there were people that, that kind of called me out on being different,
Marcos:um, or thought something was going on.
Marcos:And so I think some people may have tried.
Marcos:Did anyone stop to think, was I okay?
Marcos:You know what I mean?
Marcos:And that's what kind of hurts looking back on it.
Marcos:Like, did anyone stop to think if I was okay?
Marcos:Because I was on autopilot.
Marcos:I was in survival mode.
Marcos:And, facing it from a lot of people, it doesn't help, and it makes it hurtful.
Marcos:Like, as a kid growing up, being perceived as gay was
Christina Elmer:yeah, yeah, yeah,
Marcos:Very, very hard.
Marcos:And, and it literally started from before kindergarten, but at least kindergarten,
Marcos:all the way up through, it never ended.
Marcos:And that was hard, your whole educational experience, um, having to deal with
Marcos:questions and assumptions and, and negative comments being made to you.
Marcos:And no one, did anyone ever stop to think, was I okay?
Marcos:Because I was sure trying to put on a happy face,
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Marcos:but at home it was, I was hard, I was struggling.
Marcos:And so same thing as an adult.
Marcos:So I thank you for kind of seeing that, um, because it was
Marcos:just, definitely far from easy.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:I can imagine.
Christina Elmer:In regards to your sexuality, was it something that you noticed,
Christina Elmer:like you knew about yourself since the time that you were little?
Christina Elmer:And it just, you know, because of Mormonism, it was something
Christina Elmer:that, you know, just like, we, we don't acknowledge it.
Christina Elmer:It's not, we're not labeling it.
Christina Elmer:We're not putting a face to it because I can't.
Christina Elmer:And then when you got to college, then it was like, okay, well,
Christina Elmer:we're already on this journey of like, we're away from home, we're
Christina Elmer:experiencing new things and people now.
Christina Elmer:It's okay.
Marcos:Um, great question.
Marcos:It's so complicated.
Marcos:It's one of those things where I'm very young, I would say probably around four
Marcos:is when I know that I knew there was something different you know, like,
Marcos:you don't I, at least in my experience and many others, you know, in our age
Marcos:groups experience that I've heard, you don't necessarily attach an identity
Marcos:to it, you don't attach a word to it.
Marcos:But you know, it's just something's different about you.
Marcos:And, you know, I did notice, men.
Marcos:You know, men did catch my attention at times.
Marcos:And, so I did know that, starting pretty young.
Marcos:I didn't do anything with it until some online communications like later
Marcos:in high school, but still very rare and still like trying to tune it out.
Marcos:And then it wasn't until probably after graduation of high school when I was
Marcos:more exploring more things online.
Marcos:Um, and then going through early college years, um, is when I started, college
Marcos:year, I guess, first freshman year is when I started doing more of that, um,
Marcos:because I wanted, I still was unsure.
Marcos:Because looking back on it, I think I was emotionally attracted to girls.
Christina Elmer:Okay.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Marcos:So I definitely, I had the emotional, cause I had a lot of crushes
Marcos:and this is not, and I, you know, I thought girls were pretty, and I, you
Marcos:know, did some experimentation with girls, you know, first base type stuff,
Marcos:um, but that's kind of where it stops.
Marcos:Um, there wasn't anything strongly physical there, minus,
Marcos:oh, they're a pretty girl.
Marcos:You know, I'm supposed to marry a girl one day, so I'll get married to
Marcos:a girl, you know, who's in this, we're gonna have a lot of kids, we're gonna
Marcos:have a big wedding, um, of course I'll be the one to plan the wedding.
Christina Elmer:Yes.
Marcos:But, let me, I'm gonna pick out your dress.
Christina Elmer:Yes
Marcos:But, um, so it was all that type of thing, there was always a conflict,
Marcos:everything was conflicting, right?
Marcos:This dichotomy of this, you know, this versus that.
Marcos:So it was complicated.
Marcos:I did start having feelings of very young, um, but I was just trying
Marcos:to be who I was throughout my life.
Marcos:And it just, when you see that who you are is being ridiculed, then that's hard.
Marcos:And that's when you start thinking about it more.
Marcos:And I remember starting in early high school, maybe end of middle school,
Marcos:but starting early high school, I was literally praying to be less feminine,
Marcos:to be perceived as more as less feminine.
Marcos:I would literally pray.
Marcos:And I actually went to high school, my first semester of
Marcos:high school was actually in Utah.
Marcos:Um, cause my closest cousins had moved and we're like, oh, let's start,
Marcos:let's go to high school together.
Marcos:And there was some talk at the time of maybe my family moving to Utah
Marcos:eventually, as in many Mormon families.
Marcos:Um, and that didn't happen, but I started my first semester, um, in Utah.
Marcos:And a lot of the reason that I never shared with anyone was, a
Marcos:lot of them wanted a fresh start.
Marcos:And I was basically trying to escape the comments , are you gay?
Marcos:Or you are gay.
Marcos:Or, and also there's nothing wrong with being gay, but at the time it
Marcos:was definitely used as an insult, it wasn't a compliment, and, um, I wanted
Marcos:a fresh start, and I figured if I move and start fresh, maybe I'll have that.
Marcos:And actually I did at first, it was good, life was good, I was doing really well
Marcos:in school, I was being more disciplined, because my cousin I was living with
Marcos:was very disciplined, so I kind of like, followed his example with that.
Marcos:Um, you know, there was the whole girl thing going on, there was
Marcos:some attention, making friends.
Marcos:This is nice.
Marcos:And then boom, the end of that year, it started happening there too.
Marcos:And because one of my closest friends I made there who was
Marcos:the same, we were the same boat.
Marcos:We were both perceived as gay.
Marcos:Because that's who you're going to bond with or people that are very
Marcos:similar to you and similar interests.
Marcos:So we both had our love of divas and so we bonded.
Marcos:And it started happening there.
Marcos:And I was like, no, like, I obviously can't hide from this.
Marcos:I can't run from it.
Marcos:I should actually say I was there for the first semester.
Marcos:So towards the end of that first semester it happened, then I ended up moving back
Marcos:home with my parents and started back at my home school where I would have gone.
Marcos:And it was actually worse there than ever, which was the irony, is I left to try to
Marcos:escape it and then when I came back now in high school, it became very opposed to
Marcos:just like individual comments, it became like systematic or systemic hearsay per
Marcos:se, um, where there were like legit rumors now going around of things I didn't do.
Marcos:And it's like, what is this?
Marcos:It felt very strange to me.
Marcos:So it was really hard.
Marcos:That time period was very hard.
Marcos:But the irony is through church through trying to just work like, you know, in
Marcos:the 90s, you know, mid to late 90s when we were, at that time, um, you know,
Marcos:kind of learning more about ourselves.
Marcos:Self help was a big genre of reading, like all the Chicken Soup books.
Marcos:I was diving into those Chicken Soup books.
Marcos:I was diving into seminary.
Marcos:I was going to all the youth activities.
Marcos:I, um, eventually started working and, you know, extracurriculars, um, you know,
Marcos:that really helped me come into my own, come out of my shell, feel more confident.
Marcos:And when I was feeling more confident, I was able to tune out all the BS.
Marcos:It still happened, but I felt more comfortable with trying to tune it out.
Marcos:Um, and throughout the end of high school.
Marcos:Um, so that was helpful.
Marcos:And same thing there was very much, um, this duality of I felt very isolated.
Marcos:I felt almost like I had no friends.
Marcos:I was tired of feeling a certain way.
Marcos:But on the flip side, I did have friends.
Marcos:I did have this.
Marcos:I did have that.
Marcos:But it was always like an internal struggle.
Marcos:Um, and I was, you know, that struggle became exhausting.
Christina Elmer:Yeah, because you weren't able to show your authentic
Christina Elmer:self to people because the fear of, you know, them finding out this big part of
Christina Elmer:yourself, which, you know, if we can't authentically show who we are, that,
Christina Elmer:you know, there was probably multiple layers for you and tell me where, if
Christina Elmer:I'm wrong, but navigating as a Chicano man in Mormonism where it's completely
Christina Elmer:whitewashed and now you have this other layer of your identity that's complicating
Christina Elmer:things and it's just like I can't...
Christina Elmer:where do I fit in?
Christina Elmer:Who can I trust?
Christina Elmer:You know, and it's just a So difficult and understandably why
Christina Elmer:you just kind of, just went inward.
Marcos:Yes.
Marcos:Yes.
Christina Elmer:Especially in, when you're talking about that stage in
Christina Elmer:your twenties when you were navigating a relationship with a man, but also
Christina Elmer:having to keep a lot of these things secret and just kind of running
Christina Elmer:from, if we want to call it this, the retaliation from the church, you know,
Christina Elmer:and, we can, we can get into that.
Christina Elmer:But it just, trying to navigate all of that and, also 20s is a time where you're
Christina Elmer:trying to figure out still who you are and, you know, you're wanting to share
Christina Elmer:this part of yourself but you can't and, that's, that's a heavy, heavy load, man.
Marcos:It honestly was.
Marcos:And it's one of those things, I didn't even realize how heavy it was until
Marcos:probably my early to mid thirties.
Marcos:Um, because I was literally in survival mode for a long time.
Marcos:Um, and.
Marcos:It wasn't until afterwards, and there took a little, a few breakdowns,
Marcos:and, because when you just have no, no choice but to survive, and then
Marcos:when you kind of like can breathe.
Marcos:I then kind of had a little mini breakdown and, um, was like, damn,
Marcos:like, I was really young going through a lot of shit and I didn't
Marcos:give myself enough credit for that.
Marcos:And it wasn't until I started telling my story more to a few people that
Marcos:I kind of saw their reactions.
Marcos:I was like, oh, I guess I was a lot stronger than I realized,
Marcos:or that did take strength.
Marcos:To me, I always kind of tried to be true to myself, whatever that meant.
Marcos:I think that's just something that maybe is through all my struggles
Marcos:in childhood without realizing it.
Marcos:It's just I had to develop strength and I had to be true to who I was and mixed with
Marcos:how I was raised about always trying to do your best and be proud of who you are.
Marcos:So maybe those things were just kind of, you know, entrenched,
Marcos:but it took a lot of strength that I didn't give myself credit for.
Marcos:It was hard.
Marcos:I was essentially a kid, a very new, new adult, having to battle institutions.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:Like, legitimate institutions.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:Put on us by society, put on us by religion.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Christina Elmer:And those are, they're all consuming because they're everywhere.
Christina Elmer:You can't escape that, you know?
Marcos:Exactly.
Marcos:And then having these adult adults seeking you out to check in on you
Marcos:and come to your work and try, yeah.
Christina Elmer:I can't imagine that.
Christina Elmer:Must have been absolutely terrifying.
Marcos:It was so terrifying.
Marcos:Like and looking back on it now as an adult who works with young people, I get
Marcos:a sliver of it of like, you're just trying to find them where they're at, see how
Christina Elmer:Yeah, and, cause you legitimately care about
Christina Elmer:these people as individuals, but what is the underlying purpose?
Marcos:Exactly.
Marcos:It was scary.
Marcos:All of a sudden I'm at work, and then all of a sudden the bishop's there.
Marcos:Because I wasn't responding to messages that were being left for me at home, um,
Marcos:eventually, when I would occasionally go to church for, um, like family things,
Marcos:like farewells, homecomings type thing, you know, the stake president would then
Marcos:try to connect with me if he saw me.
Marcos:And that felt weird, but all that stopped once I was no longer
Marcos:eligible to go on a mission age wise.
Marcos:I, I, I saw the connection.
Marcos:So I, yes, so I think they were trying to, in one hand, still work with me to
Marcos:see if we can get them all, quote, on the right path, get them on a mission.
Marcos:And then the other hand is, what else can we maybe have a meeting with him about?
Marcos:So I just, my go to at that point was just avoidance.
Marcos:Like, I have to survive.
Marcos:I'm not dealing with this.
Marcos:Please stop, you know, in my head, please stop bothering me.
Marcos:So once again, thank goodness for the support I did have.
Marcos:Um, because I don't know if I would have survived, to be honest.
Marcos:Um, it's really nuts to get back on it.
Christina Elmer:Yeah, absolutely.
Christina Elmer:It's, it's so interesting to me, the tactics and the,
Christina Elmer:the methods that they use.
Christina Elmer:Like, what, what, what age were you when the, the call stops.
Christina Elmer:I, I'm assuming like most people are considered ineligible to serve
Christina Elmer:a mission at about, what, 25 or 26?
Marcos:Yeah, I think at that time it was 26.
Marcos:So once I turned 27, I stopped hearing from them.
Marcos:And I kind of noticed that a few years after it clicked, I'm like, oh
Marcos:wait, I think that's why it stopped.
Christina Elmer:It feels so gross to me that like, their only reason
Christina Elmer:for, you know, granted, we're not saying that this is generalized across
Christina Elmer:the board for churches, people for, that are members of the Church of
Christina Elmer:Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Christina Elmer:A lot of people really legitimately do care about people.
Christina Elmer:But just the methods that they went about to keep you in a certain space,
Christina Elmer:in a certain box And to just like keep tabs on you in a really invasive way.
Christina Elmer:Like, you know, instead of just respecting that, if you wanted to
Christina Elmer:come back, you would have come back.
Christina Elmer:And like, we were taught growing up, like, yes, the power of
Christina Elmer:the atonement is huge, right?
Christina Elmer:Like if we truly believe in Christ as our savior, he will fix everything, right?
Christina Elmer:No matter where we end up, like if we end up committing, in your book,
Christina Elmer:probably, you know, as you're looking at the ultimate sin of entering into
Christina Elmer:a homosexual relationship, right?
Christina Elmer:If they truly believe what they were teaching, they should have just let you
Christina Elmer:come back and say, you know, I'm ready to do this instead of just like running after
Christina Elmer:you in a way that just felt terrifying.
Marcos:Right,
Christina Elmer:it was like,
Marcos:Right, Exactly.
Christina Elmer:You know, I like to think of it as like, what would Jesus do?
Christina Elmer:We used to have those bracelets growing up.
Christina Elmer:Like, what would Jesus do?
Christina Elmer:And that doesn't feel like something that Jesus would.
Christina Elmer:So it's just, it's very curious to me, the tactics that they...
Christina Elmer:take to like keep people in and using like such a fear model, right?
Christina Elmer:Instead of just like loving people and trusting that the space that they're
Christina Elmer:in that they'll come back if they choose to come back instead of just
Christina Elmer:coming at it from the space of fear.
Christina Elmer:And we know that as humans like if we approach anything with fear
Christina Elmer:that the outcome is going to be completely different and we can't
Christina Elmer:keep people in that space when we're coming from the space of fear.
Christina Elmer:So, it's interesting.
Christina Elmer:It's, yeah, it's just very, Mormonism is just very interesting.
Christina Elmer:I feel like we could spend hours talking about it, but it's just
Christina Elmer:like when it comes to things of like disfellowshipment or excommunication,
Marcos:Um, Uh,
Christina Elmer:there is a lot of stigma behind it, especially when
Christina Elmer:you have family members that are still active in the church, right?
Christina Elmer:Like, or you have a son that's not serving a mission.
Christina Elmer:There's a lot of people that are sitting in the congregation, this happened to me
Christina Elmer:with a dear friend here in town, whose son came home early from a mission,
Christina Elmer:and she was very cautious about who she told as to the legitimate reason why.
Christina Elmer:And fortunately, like, it happened when COVID was pretty
Christina Elmer:at it pretty much at its peak.
Christina Elmer:And so they kind of were able to use that as you know, COVID got too much.
Christina Elmer:He was in an unsafe area.
Christina Elmer:You know, it was um, even though there's a lot of people still were
Christina Elmer:out serving missions during COVID.
Christina Elmer:But it just like, I, my heart broke for her and I, I'm thinking about, you know,
Christina Elmer:the perspective of your mother, as me as a mother, like how it must have been,
Christina Elmer:and I can't speak to her experience, but I know that for a lot of women
Christina Elmer:that have, are in Mormonism and have sons, cause mostly sons are required
Christina Elmer:within Mormonism to go on missions.
Christina Elmer:RIght?
Christina Elmer:Because that's one of the boxes you check to be a worthy priesthood holder
Christina Elmer:and worthy of being married to, you know, someone for time and all eternity.
Christina Elmer:And it's, you know, did they serve a full time mission?
Christina Elmer:If they didn't serve a mission, you know, what's wrong with them?
Christina Elmer:And I just feel like the, stigma that comes from not serving a mission must
Christina Elmer:have um, added a different layer for you as well, like, you know, looking
Christina Elmer:at it from, um, the lens of, you know, how is this going to affect my family
Christina Elmer:that are still very much in, um,
Marcos:Exactly.
Marcos:No, you're right, because I...
Marcos:I'm the only one in my immediate family that did not go on a mission.
Marcos:So all my siblings, my parents, um, you know, most of my cousins went.
Marcos:Um, very missionary minded family.
Marcos:I always wanted to go.
Marcos:That was always the plan, you know, and looking back on it, there was a time where
Marcos:I was seen as the goal, I think a golden boy, maybe not the golden boy, but a
Marcos:golden boy in the family and in the area.
Marcos:And so, I think it was expected, and, um, so I think it really surprised people,
Marcos:and that's when tongues started wagging.
Marcos:What's going on?
Marcos:And for me, I just isolated and hid from it all.
Marcos:And like, I'm just gonna do my own thing now.
Marcos:But it was still going on until I think maybe people finally
Marcos:found someone else to do that.
Christina Elmer:For sure.
Christina Elmer:Yeah.
Marcos:Yeah, so there was a big thing too.
Marcos:I was lucky because I didn't get as much from my family as
Marcos:I was expecting about that.
Marcos:But what did happen was already enough.
Marcos:Um, and at that point was more just like, separation, and people were just saying it
Marcos:with me not around, so it was very hard.
Christina Elmer:Thank you so much for listening today and allowing
Christina Elmer:us to be a part of your day.
Christina Elmer:If you'd like more information on leaving in color or to be a guest on
Christina Elmer:our show, please reach out to us on Instagram at leavingincolor.pod or
Christina Elmer:email us at leavingincolorpod@gmail.com.
Christina Elmer:If this episode resonated with you in any way or made you think of a loved one
Christina Elmer:or a friend, please tell them about it.
Christina Elmer:Your support generates more abundance collectively, so please
Christina Elmer:subscribe to Leaving in Color wherever you listen to podcasts.
Christina Elmer:Like all beautifully crafted pieces, this podcast was created
Christina Elmer:by the most talented humans.
Christina Elmer:Our music is by the melodic master, Tucker Winters.
Christina Elmer:Our lovely, beautiful art is by the multifaceted Jen of
Christina Elmer:all trades, Jen Cagle Gilmore.
Christina Elmer:Leaving in Color is masterfully produced in conjunction
Christina Elmer:with Particulate Media, K.O.
Christina Elmer:Myers, executive producer.
Christina Elmer:And I am Christina Elmer.
Christina Elmer:See you soon.
